Understanding Today's Narcissist
Understanding Today's Narcissist

Episode · 4 months ago

Christine Hammond Interviews Chris and Lisa, Part 1

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Christine Hammond Interviews Chris and Lisa, Part 1

...some abuses dangerously obvious. Whileother types of abuse creep into our family DNA in covert ways, keepingfamily secrets, intimidation, the silent treatment and cyber bullying arejust a few examples of the many forms of abuse with troubling outcomes. Oftenvictims ask why did this happen to me or what can I do while abusers willexcuse their behavior, asking why do you make me do this, victims andabusers can rewrite their stories, improve their relationships and breakthe cycle for their future generations. In Christine Hammond's latest book,abuse exposed, you will learn the wide range of types of abuse, both overt andcovert the generational links to abuse, what to do before, during and afterabuse, how to confront your abuser, how to talk to a victim of rape, findingforgiveness despite the pain, how to rewrite your story and avoid futureproblems and much much more. Look for Christine Hammond's latest book abuseexposed now available on amazon. This is understanding today's Narcissistbrought to you in part by psych central dot com and now here's your host,Christine Hammond. Hi welcome back to our podcast and today I'm reallyexcited to be talking with you and sharing with you lisa and chris and Imet them through their website called been there, bought out and they havethis amazing journey and story that I would be so much better than we'regiving you stories you can actually hear from real life people, theirjourney and their story and how they...

...got to where they are right now. So I'mgonna turn it over to you guys, lisa tell us a little bit about your story.Okay, so I'm going to start now and go back a little bit. So Chris is the loveof my life and we have been together for over six years and now I'm going tojump back to my gosh, maybe 10 or a little more than 10 years ago I wasworking and I was at the house of an older couple who were moving and I justremembered that you know, one of them was very sick and frail and the waythat they interacted and looked at each other, the love that they had for eachother Was so intense even after being together for 50 years and I went homeand cried because I knew or I believed at the time that I would never haveanything like that ever. I had been married for about almost 18 yearstogether for 20 to a man I did not realize had been lying to me the entiretime um and had been a covert narcissist, but I just knew thatwhatever these people had was something I never had, I never would and Iresigned myself to it, but that's not what happened. Yeah. I was also in along term marriage and currently co parent with a narcissist. My narcissistwas over very big flashy center of attention. I had no clue what was goingon lisa and I didn't even figure out what narcissism was. I mean I knew theword the same way most people use it, which is just somebody who's got a bigego, but about I would say maybe six months, you know, a little bit longer,maybe a year after she left me, which is the greatest gift he ever gave mebecause I was so spun up. I was so It's like being in a cult, sometimes caughtup in the web has gone up in it and you know, the whole world revolved aroundher and I was walking on eggshells, all those things that people do. And theone thing I knew that had a name was...

...projection. I figured that out 10 yearsbefore the relationship ended. And in the flames at the end of therelationship, she called me a narcissist. So knowing that sheprojected, I googled it and I found like a Wikipedia article or somethinglike that. And I just said, oh my God, like all of this stuff, all thisbehavior. First of all, I'm not alone, it has a name, there's a reason forthis behavior and I was just like, oh my God, well, lisa and I had alreadymet, So I told her about it and she read the article and I couldn't believeit. So now I'm going to jump back even more 20 whatever years ago when I firstgot together more of my ex, husband he seemed like the most quiet. excellentlistener on paper. He was amazing. he had this great career, he had realestate, he was very cerebral, he loved to read, I met him actually right afterI came back from living in europe, I have been teaching english for a yearin Hungary and I moved back and he offered me one of his houses to rentreally cheap and I was just like, this guy is just so nice, but I wasn'tattracted to him at all. I just thought, you know, I've been backpacking aroundeurope, like having all my fun, I should probably like grow up and likesettle down, come back to the States and like finally date a man instead oflike a man child, which was the type of guys that I used to date in the past.Yeah, so it always surprises me when lisa's such a passion. We're both verypassionate people when she describes her relationship with her ex husband,I'm like how did you live without really? Like we love each other very,very much very intensely and how did she live without that for so long? Andit just surprises me, I know I know it's so interesting how chris and Ihave really different ex partners but the ways that we get together, you knowlike yours was super intense and fiery mind was like a slow, like I felt likeokay this this person is safe and this...

...is like the mature thing to do and withthe you know, love bombing which is different. Most other relationshipsmind was very like the grooming started with him saying you know relationshipsare hard and he sort of positioned himself as this authority and he wasseven years older than me and he was like you know, I know more than you'vebeen popping around the world, like I'm the one who will like sort of groundyou and be the steady partner that he was going to rescue you. Yeah, well not,I didn't need to be rescued, but it was like, I'm gonna help you grow up andI'm gonna appreciate you. And of course he mirrored, you know what I love, likehe was like, I'm so cultured and I'm going to take you know, even though Ijust came back from europe, I know you love traveling, I'm going to take youaway on these amazing trips. And I thought this is what I want, eventhough again, no real attraction, but like this is the kind of man I shouldmarry someone that I can read next to in bed and, you know, will educate ourfuture Children and have that stability and wow, it was not. So when did yourealize you were like in over your head in that relationship? He seemed, Ireally thought he was like my best friend for most of it. So probably notuntil 20 ish years later there were red flags. But when I finally got him outand I always believed that no matter what bad behavior he did, he trulyloved me and the kids and he basically walked out of our lives and abandonedthe kids and then his behavior with the divorce. I was astounded and alsodiscovering that he had a double life. I can't say how I know this, but he hadhad a double life the entire time he had been soliciting other women duringour honeymoon, everything had been a complete lie and I I didn't know what anarcissist was, but during the divorce process and again I learned so muchfrom chris is when I really realized what I was dealing. We were not at lisaand I met, we were not emotionally ready to be in a relationship. If lisahadn't gone through what she went...

...through, she would have heard my stuffand been like, I can't deal with it the baggage, you know, of going through athree year divorce that cost $300,000 for no reason other than she wanted toexert power and control over me, you know, and vice versa. If I just had hada run of the mill divorce and lisa brought her stuff, it would have beenlike too much. But because we've both been through it, you know, we've beenable to be incredible support for each other. We went through it togetherbecause I had been in my head out of the relationship for over two years andI was planning my exit. So, I had already emotionally detached from therelationship, was figuring out what to do regarding the kids and housing, andkept my cards really close to my chest. And so by the time I got him out, I waslike, so done, and so chris and I actually met just a few weeks later,less than a couple months later, and it was amazing, and I had no idea what Iwas in front, and I had no idea that the person I had met was going wasdealing with the same things in different ways than I was. It was likea miracle. I was out of my relationship about eight months, I was already inthe legal system and all that. So, I had a little more distance or time frommy actual separation, but the fight, the legal fight was just beginning. Itwas about custody. For me at least this stuff is mostly financial, but mycustody. So tell us a little bit more about what it was like for you chrisbeing married to because in your case it's an over female narcissists whichis an interesting combination all by itself. So, so why don't you share withus a little bit like what that was like? It was chaotic. It was you know, Ididn't know what gaslighting was. There was tons of that going on. I have thisdopey story. I tell all the time about how water in our kitchen sink. Therewas this little strip of Formica like in every kitchen in America and therewould always be water there. And she told me there was something she used tobash the house we live in, we lived in the house that I own before we gotmarried and she just constantly ripped...

...it. She was like, you know how dare Isubject her to a life like this And I love my house. My house, a very nicehouse is not you know anything incredible, it's not a mansion, butit's it's a wonderful house. Yeah. And she had grown up wealthy, that's partof the story also, but she would say that there was something wrong with thesink and our house is such a rundown hovel, that why is there water leakingon the sink? And it made me crazy. And I even went to one of my friends whowas very handy around the house, I said why is there water here? And he saidyou dope, it's just being splashed there, She like wash dishes orsomething and she just wouldn't like the counter. So I know that's a reallysilly example bandits, but that stuff happened all the time, but that one forwhatever reason sticks in my head, that's a great example. And so as youstart to figure out what the narcissism looked like, what were some of thethings that really stand out to you both of you now is like keycharacteristics that you missed along the way. Uh okay, we just say all ofthem because I know we have a lot of times, but there were textbook textbook,but with the way, you know, like I said, I didn't know what narcissism was untilafter I was already out, you know, uh stay close to a year and all of thethings, so it played out in the legal system and played out in our coparenting um you know, where, you know, she would just make these outrageousclaims and everything was about, you know, for her, her self esteem issupported by being perceived as a good mother. So it's always, you know, therewas, if you know what Munchausen by proxy is, um, that happened with myyounger child always missed tons of school because of this mysteriousstomach. He had always seen specialist at their specialists and all this stuffso that she could be like, oh my gosh, I'm so burdened with this sick childand I'm doing everything I can to help him. So that's one thing and then thelies in court, um, you know, try calling me an abuser, all kinds ofthings. But now that I know once I...

...understood and I was like, oh, that'sthat behavior, you know, it just helps me keep a more even keel and know whatto expect. And the other thing and I'm sorry for going on a bit, but when Irealized that she never loved me in the way that a healthy person means love,that that helped me get over it because I was like, there's nothing to mournhere. The relationship wasn't real, right? That's, that's a great way ofthinking about it and lisa what about you like looking back on it now? Whatare some big things that you missed along the way? Um, I think from thevery beginning, one of the themes that he convinced me was that he was sosmart and so misunderstood that he needed, that no one could reach thelevel of you know intelligence that he had, that this is why he was on thecomputer all the time. He needed to feel understood and nobody else wascapable. So um but that was really an excuse for just constant online affairsand the last time which was when I was like I am really done. Um I found outthat he had been having some kind of who knows what, who knows who umoverseas who looked to me like a teenage girl. He was in his fifties atthe time and when he finally confessed you know that because I knew that justdetails just ridiculous, but he was so completely delusional and convincedthat this person, he was telling me this person was his soul mate, he wasgoing to move her here, having never met her into one of his father'sapartments and I was just like what about our two kids? Like what do youthink they're going to think? And that was the thing like he was so delusionaland I think for so long I had respected his judgment, you know he alwayspositioned himself as an authority and that was the dynamic of ourrelationship that I was always making, you know, like let's do this one. Andhe was like the calm rational one and I...

...thought I can't believe like this guyis actually out of his mind and then I started realizing so many things overthe years that he had said and done that never made sense, but I hadaccepted him as this authority when he never really earned it, you know? Andand that's when I started finally questioning and being like, no, likethis is like a crazy person which helped, but it's still, you know,shocked me along the way. But I learned to realize that the delusion didn'tlimit itself to just this one affair. It was everything. And it is played outin the past seven ish years in the court system. So chris said that his exfeels valuable in terms of how she's perceived as a mother mind is theopposite. He doesn't care how he's perceived. His behavior is outrageousand all he's doing is like destroyed. He's destroyed his relationship withour Children. You know, years ago. They've been no contact for years. He'sdestroying, I have hundreds of pages of court records documenting like terriblebehavior and it's like he's unaware that he keeps making things worse. Buthe won't give up his court is the last thing he has to continue to try toengage with me and exert power and control. So let me just say this like Iwant to kind of wrap it up a little bit. What one piece of advice would you giveto somebody who's in a relationship with the narcissist right now. First ofall, I think most people who are in the relationship with the Narcissists donot realize that they are in that kind of relationship, but if you do realizeit, the only piece of advice I would say is you cannot have hope that theyare going to change, and also you can't do anything about it and it's not you,right, and you're not alone. Yeah, I think the thing I'd say, I guessbecause I've got the legal system on my mind is you have to learn about it andyou have to adjust your mindset as...

...quickly as possible. Because I didn'tgo from not having known what Narcissism was to be an expert in aweek. You know, I went, it was a journey and I made a lot of mistakesthat have had an impact on things in court and my own peace of mind, myfears all that they had an impact on me. Because I didn't learn fast enoughChristina. When you say one thing, because now I'm like, who actuallyChristine's a therapist who works with these personalities, things stillchange shit. What I said to more of they can't change unless they want tochange. That's correct. They have to want it, which is very rare. Let's makesure we're always clear about that. When a narcissist wants to change, theychange big right? Because they can't ever do anything small. So they changeon a really big scale, but they have to really very badly wanted and havereasons that are for themselves and outside of external reasons. In otherwords, court is not a good reason. Children are not enough of a reason, arelationship is not enough of a reason. Those are not enough of a reason fornarcissist, it has to be internal for themselves and then they will change.But it's extraordinarily rare, right? Because the people that we see, theycome to us saying, is there any hope now if you're the one who's trying tohope that it's not now? Right. Right. Exactly. All right. So let's why don'tyou share with the audience, like how they can reach you guys? Tell us alittle bit about your website and the services that you guys have. Sure. So,we originally had a plan to write a book and then we learned about all thechanges in the publishing industry over the past couple of decades, and we said,no, no, no. What we need to do is help people more directly. So we have aseries of online workshops, they're all really inexpensive, like $27.47 dollarsin that range for different topics, because as you know, it's a longjourney from just first realizing what's going on to being out and happyand finding to healthy love on the other side, there's a lot has to happen.So we try to help people that no matter...

...what stage they're at. We're alsogetting into the high conflict divorce coaching realm because that's where wecan have the biggest impact on custody situation, financial situations. Sobeen there got out dot com. Yes. You forget the legal abusive. I maybe wejust started that like a few weeks ago, the legal abuse support group forpeople in situations like me stuck in the Family Court, Superior Courtappellate court for years and years and years. There is no other legal abusesupport group out there anywhere that I found and we've had a lot of peoplejoin and I try to offer emotional support as well as guidance fromexperts who know what they're talking about. Like we have a guest speakerthis sunday's group who is a former guardian ad litem and she talks aboutyou know what you need to know when you're dealing with because theGuardians have a lot of influence on these cases. Actually every singleperson so far in this support group is a parent with Children and the safetyof your Children is always like a top top concern. So everything, all thethings we just talked about, you can learn more. I've been there dot com.Yeah, in there, got out dot com thank you so much chris and lisa. It was sucha pleasure. Thanks for having us Christine. Thanks for listening tounderstanding today's narcissist with Christine Hammond brought to you in part by psych centraldot com. For more information, visit grow with Christine dot com. Yeah.

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